For the full debate see: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmtoday/cmdebate/06.htm
Mark Fisher: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban). I, too, want to concentrate my remarks on new clause 1.
The problem has been well described by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field). Members in all parts of the House regardless of party, and, more particularly, the millions of people who have been disadvantaged by these changes, owe a great debt to my right hon. Friend. Together, he and my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn (Mr. Pope) identified the problem initially, persuaded us very early on that it existed, and have campaigned on it consistently over the past two years. Everybody who cares about this issue is greatly in their debt. I hope that that view is shared even on the Treasury Bench, as well as across the House.
This debate goes right to the heart of what Parliament is about. The essence of what we do is to raise grievances and, in return for the right to do so, vote supply to the Government. I think that not only Labour Members but Members in all parts of the House want the Bill to go through: the Budget has many good things in it, and we want to vote supply to the Government. However, we want to raise what is a serious grievance for many of the poorest people in our society.
It is right that my right hon. Friend has identified that grievance and articulated it so well. The people who are most disadvantaged by these changes are, as he said, people on the most modest incomes. They come to all our surgeries and talk about it—sometimes not even in terms of pounds, almost pennies, but those sums make the difference between a dignified life and a life that lacks dignity because they cannot participate in society. They are not glamorous sums, which is possibly why the press and other media have been less interested in this grievance than in many others. These changes do not catch the headlines, but they mean a great deal to people who come to our surgeries £50, £100 or £120 a year worse off as a result.
It is right that this grievance should not only be identified but put right tonight. We will want to vote supply to the Government, but we want them to recognise that grievance, and to recognise that they have caused the problem and it is up to them to put it right. As my right hon. Friend said, doing so would not involve a huge sum; it is perfectly within the grasp of the Government to rectify their mistake.
Why has there not been a greater outcry? Possibly because, as I said, the losses for any one individual are very small. Ironically, that makes it even more important that they should be addressed. It is also because many people, particularly pensioners, have difficulty in working out exactly how their pension works and what their financial position is. Many of my constituents have said, “I sense that I am worse off under this. I am told that I will be, and I have been to the citizens advice bureau and they have identified that fact, but I do not fully understand it.”
As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) said, the tax system is so complicated at various times and in various ways that, as we all recognise, the people who come to our advice surgeries do not fully understand the minutiae of it. They do not realise that they are worse off, or exactly what is causing it. That is why we are particularly in debt to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead and my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn. They have identified the problem, with the help of the IFS, and articulated it.
This debate is about poverty. That is not a fashionable subject, and I regret that the Government whom I have been proud to support over the past 12 years have not often talked about poverty. They have talked about the future, entrepreneurship and the great expansion of our economy, but there are still large pockets of poverty in all our constituencies, in rural areas and in city areas such as mine. That poverty is made worse by the 10p change, and it has been intensified.
Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I think it is unfair to say that the Government have not talked about poverty, but by and large it has been about child poverty or pensioner poverty. They have fallen down in not talking about people who do not fall into either of those categories because they do not have a family and are not pensioners. Those people are the worst off because they do not have extra benefits, and they will be particularly hard-hit by the measure in question.
Mark Fisher: I take my hon. Friend’s admonition. Of course Ministers have discussed poverty, but when the story of this Government comes to be written, I do not believe it will say that they have crusaded and pioneered to eliminate poverty generally in our society. Some 12 years on, we still have a residue of poverty.
Ms Karen Buck (Regent’s Park and Kensington, North) (Lab): Pursuant to the remark by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones), one thing that causes me great concern is the difficulty of separating out low-earning adult poverty from child or pensioner poverty. Many low-earning adults live in families that have children, and indeed there is evidence that one driver of child poverty is there being adults in the house who are very low earners. Although progress may have been made on specific aspects of poverty, it is critical that we tackle it across the board, including for single earners, as we are seeking to do today.
Mark Fisher: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and of course I would want to make the exception, which was implicit in her remarks, that those who earn low wages and are in poverty have been helped remarkably well by this Government. The Prime Minister, when he was Chancellor, introduced tax credits and transformed the lives of many of my constituents who were on poverty wages. It gave them a decent lifestyle. When the people on the end of poor administration of tax credits are examined, the system gets a bad reputation, but it has been a life-changing and life-improving experience for the vast majority of those who receive tax credits. It has tackled implicit poverty among many of our constituents.
Poverty does exist. It is a low-level condition but a very painful one, and it is Parliament’s responsibility to try to put it right, not to make it worse. The 10p change undoubtedly made it worse for many people. Tonight is the time when the Government have to face up to that and recognise that they have got this slightly wrong and can put it right. We owe it to the people affected to correct it, and we owe it to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead, for his crusade, to put it right tonight. I hope that we will.